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Thread: New Hearing assist devices better than hearing aids

  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgh View Post
    You are certainly providing some interesting input , thanks….
    Bose qc's provide significant passive reduction , there is probably some research somewhere, but one assumes that passive muffling also negates bone conduction to some extent.

    Is the failure of hearing aids to provide better performance in noise, or indeed better performance overall, a function of the cosmetic demands of purchasers ? ( all who will happily wear glasses and yet appear to demand invisible hearing assist devices)
    Hearing aids are manufactured to the invisible model, and it's surely reasonable to assume that a hearing device that was ten times the size and weight of a conventional aid would have very serious grunt.

    NuHeara and Hear one are getting lots of publicity as the first out of the blocks, but there is still the Bose product to be released .
    Bose have heaps of experience , a stable business that won't fail if one product fails and the benefit of watching how the early adopters perform.

    Hearing aid manufacturers may attempt to protect their pitch by also producing similar products depending on the market uptake.
    They have a pile of research and manufacturing experience and capability , not to mention the loyalty tens of thousand of audiologists worldwide who have a vested interest in their continued employment.

    Interesting times
    Yes, Bose QC has some passive noise reduction due to the muffling effect of covering the entire ear, on top of the active noise cancellation that they do via circuitry. But when compared this situation of noise cancellation when streaming from a SEPARATE source of audio, I think the hearing aids are performing on par in terms of passive noise reduction as long as the HA wearer is not fitted with open vent. HAs don't really do active noise cancellation in this situation actually from what I can tell. They simply give you the option to turn the mics off, but the open vent, if very large, will allow noise to get in, as well as bleed the low frequencies of the streamed audio out as well. But then the HAs are not marketing or designed as noise cancelling devices anyway. And you can still use the HAs together with the noise cancelling headphones just the same as a normal hearing for the most part, assuming that your HA's feedback issue is solved.

    I wouldn't say that HAs fail to provide better performance in noise like you think. I think that the opinion you have here is of a minority only, as evident from the responses on this thread, at least. The current solution the HA industry has in terms of directional beam forming, or even the new approach to noise reduction by the Oticon OPN, work for the most part with the majority of HA wearers. But it's not perfect yet and it's still the holy grail, and there'll always be a minority of users who still don't find the performance adequate for them yet in noisy places so they go out to see a different solution in these new hearing devices. But the jury is still out on whether these new devices like from Nuheara or HearOne or the Bose product have really achieved this holy grail. I highly doubt it. If they get good reviews from the public, it'd be mostly from people with fairly normal hearing, at least good enough hearing to not need HAs and only seek some temporary relief in noisy places. So in general, any solution would be a better solution than no solution at all. But I'd bet that if these people had been fit with hearing aids, they would find that the noise reduction performance of the HAs to be effective for them just as well, if not even better than these new devices.

    I don't think the miniaturization of HAs is the cause and compromise for them to not have good performance in noisy places. The issue is really a technical one and it's simply just not easy to be able to distinguish what's noise and what's speech and be able to separate it intelligently if noise and speech are from the same source. I really don't think that the mfgs of these new devices have achieved any ground breaking discovery that makes their new device superior to what the HA industry already has. I think they're simply copying the directional beam forming approach that's already been employed and incorporate it into their devices. If they get good reviews for it, it'd simply be because it's being applied to the common masses who have normal hearing and only seek temporary relief from noisy places to understand speech better, so to them, "anything is better than nothing" for a device costing only a few hundred bucks. And besides, the common mass have very good hearing in the first place, so any easy relief is effective for their good hearing. Meanwhile, to the hearing challenged folks wearing HAs, "anything is better than nothing" is not the same standard for them because their device cost is in the thousands of dollars range, and on top of that, they truly have legitimate hearing challenges that must be addressed. So in general, comparing the success of a lower priced device (in the few hundred dollar range) that serve the normal hearing public to the success of a higher price device (in the thousand dollar range) that serve the hearing challenged folks are really comparing apples and oranges. They cater to 2 entirely different groups and you can't generalize that if they're good for the normal hearing group, then they'll be just as good for the hearing challenged group.
    Last edited by Volusiano; 04-02-2017 at 10:33 AM.
    HA wearer since the 1990's > Rexton Insite+ CIC (2011-2016) > Oticon OPN RITE (2016)

    KHz 0.25...0.5...0.75...1.0...1.5...2.0...3.0...4.0... 6.0...8.0

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  2. #122
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    Jun 2011
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    Northern CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgh View Post
    You are certainly providing some interesting input , thanks….
    Bose qc's provide significant passive reduction , there is probably some research somewhere, but one assumes that passive muffling also negates bone conduction to some extent.

    Is the failure of hearing aids to provide better performance in noise, or indeed better performance overall, a function of the cosmetic demands of purchasers ? ( all who will happily wear glasses and yet appear to demand invisible hearing assist devices)
    Hearing aids are manufactured to the invisible model, and it's surely reasonable to assume that a hearing device that was ten times the size and weight of a conventional aid would have very serious grunt.

    NuHeara and Hear one are getting lots of publicity as the first out of the blocks, but there is still the Bose product to be released .
    Bose have heaps of experience , a stable business that won't fail if one product fails and the benefit of watching how the early adopters perform.

    Hearing aid manufacturers may attempt to protect their pitch by also producing similar products depending on the market uptake.
    They have a pile of research and manufacturing experience and capability , not to mention the loyalty tens of thousand of audiologists worldwide who have a vested interest in their continued employment.

    Interesting times
    Basically these "hearing assist devices" are in effect giving you a HA with an occluded mold so they can control all incoming noise and process it. How well are these devices working with your sensitivity to noise?
    Oticon Agil Pro w/streamer

    -250 500 1000 1500 2000 3000 4000 6000 8000
    L 10--5----10----30---50----70----85---80---80
    R 5--10----20----35---45----85----85--100--100

    SP Disc ------------- SRT
    L 88% @55db ------- L-10
    R 90% @55db------- R-25

  3. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by seb View Post
    Basically these "hearing assist devices" are in effect giving you a HA with an occluded mold so they can control all incoming noise and process it. How well are these devices working with your sensitivity to noise?
    I haven't bought them yet Seb , just following their progress.
    When all the hype settles down , a few more reviews appear, and the market levels out the pricing, I will try them.
    I also need to book a follow up with my audio to review the current situation with my current aids.

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Northern CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgh View Post
    I haven't bought them yet Seb , just following their progress.
    When all the hype settles down , a few more reviews appear, and the market levels out the pricing, I will try them.
    I also need to book a follow up with my audio to review the current situation with my current aids.
    Ask him/her if you can try earmolds, you may find the answer to your problems with them in setting up a restaurant program that allows you to hear better in noise.
    Oticon Agil Pro w/streamer

    -250 500 1000 1500 2000 3000 4000 6000 8000
    L 10--5----10----30---50----70----85---80---80
    R 5--10----20----35---45----85----85--100--100

    SP Disc ------------- SRT
    L 88% @55db ------- L-10
    R 90% @55db------- R-25

  5. Default

    So how does plugging my ears help Seb ?
    Atm, my aids only attempt to provide the missing bits as I understand the process.

    If one uses full moulds surely the aids must be reset to deliver a full spectrum of amplification ?
    Do the aids then magically become able to discriminate the near voices from the general racket ?

    If so, why don't they do this successfully now ?

    I have several speech in noise programme options, all the fancy stuff is available, one is even a custom setting to my personal attempt at usability..still doesn't work...

  6. #126

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    When will you folks realize he doesn't want help may not even need help considering some of his replies? I suspect some involvement with nuheara.

  7. #127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tgh View Post
    So how does plugging my ears help Seb ?
    Atm, my aids only attempt to provide the missing bits as I understand the process.

    If one uses full moulds surely the aids must be reset to deliver a full spectrum of amplification ?
    Do the aids then magically become able to discriminate the near voices from the general racket ?

    If so, why don't they do this successfully now ?

    I have several speech in noise programme options, all the fancy stuff is available, one is even a custom setting to my personal attempt at usability..still doesn't work...
    Oticon has several free video podcasts on their website:

    https://www.oticon.com/professionals...dcast-program/

    Their VP of Audiology has several video podcasts that focus on hearing in noise.
    Tony
    ---------------------
    Oticon OPNs
    Previously: Bernafon Juna 9s with Soundgate 3
    ----------------------
    55 55 50 10 60 25
    250 500 1000 2000 4000 8000
    55 60 45 15 20 10

    Word Recognition, 60% at 70 db (left), 96% at 65db (right)
    <Tested 1/2/17>

  8. #128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tgh View Post
    So how does plugging my ears help Seb ?
    Atm, my aids only attempt to provide the missing bits as I understand the process.

    If one uses full moulds surely the aids must be reset to deliver a full spectrum of amplification ?
    Do the aids then magically become able to discriminate the near voices from the general racket ?

    If so, why don't they do this successfully now ?

    I have several speech in noise programme options, all the fancy stuff is available, one is even a custom setting to my personal attempt at usability..still doesn't work...
    I can't speak for Seb, but in general I think the physical fitting is just as important if not even more important than the software programming fitting.

    If I recall correctly, you mentioned that you have an open fit, and that you're extremely sensitive to mid frequencies, is that correct?

    I think the idea of switching from an open fit to a custom full mold may help in your situation because it'll block out the unwanted noise that your open fit simply can't block out by design. Yes, the HAs will be reset to deliver a full spectrum of amplification, but at least now the HA will be in more control of being able to precisely deliver only what you need to hear and not have any external influence that can mess up this control, like the open vent that allows the noise to come in and interfere with your hearing.

    Basically most noise programs in HAs switches it to directional beam forming to allow only sound in the front where the speech is to come in through the HAs and block out the surrounding sound that can interfere with this beam forming action. The open fitting that you wear basically compromises this strategy because it allows the surrounding sound to still come through open vent and pollute the sound in front from the beam again.

    For some people with less sensitivity in the mid frequencies, they can get by with this, but for someone with much more sensitivity like in your case, the open vent totally foils the noise reduction strategy and renders it ineffective for you. Therefore, by switching over to a custom close mold (or with very small vent), it'll help block out the noise like it's supposed to so that the noise reduction strategy your HAs can work more effectively for you.
    Last edited by Volusiano; 04-04-2017 at 10:12 AM.
    HA wearer since the 1990's > Rexton Insite+ CIC (2011-2016) > Oticon OPN RITE (2016)

    KHz 0.25...0.5...0.75...1.0...1.5...2.0...3.0...4.0... 6.0...8.0

    Left ...10...10....10.....30.....70....75....80....95.. ..90....80
    Right .25...30....40.....55.....75....85....90....90...1 00...100

  9. Default

    Thanks (again) Volusiano…... we have to stop meeting like this… :-)

    I think I have a fair handle of how it all works and my question to seb was really just giving him an opportunity to explain his view of the issue.

    The downsides of the concept are probably a bridge too far for me as I choose to minimise my reliance.

    Maybe I'm just a recalcitrant supplicant to the wonderful offerings from the Audiology industry.. c'est la vie…

    The real number of dissatisfied hearing aid users with noise problems is unknown , but the bud availability and uptake may shed some light.

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Jake View Post
    When will you folks realize he doesn't want help may not even need help considering some of his replies? I suspect some involvement with nuheara.
    When will you tell us all why you are s*** stirring in the thread ?
    Are you a paid up apologist for the audiology industry.. or do you just get a buzz out of presenting as an a***hole ?

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